Celebrating 20 Years Of The Agile Manifesto (with Giles Lindsay from Agile Delta Consulting)

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Jonathon Wright In the digital reality, evolution over revolution prevails. The QA approaches and techniques that worked yesterday will fail you tomorrow. So free your mind. The automation cyborg has been sent back in time. TED speaker, Jonathon Wright's mission is to help you save the future from bad software. 

Hey, and welcome to the TheQALead.com. Today I'm gonna be joined by a good friend of mine, Giles Lindsay. We're going to be talking about the upcoming event to celebrate the Agile Manifesto turning 20. 

Giles, welcome to the show you are officially the Agile20Reflect Festival UK Ambassador. How does it feel? 

Giles Lindsay Oh, it feels great. Uh, thanks for having me, uh, yeah, really looking forward to the month of February.

I mean, who thought that, uh, in a global pandemic we could end up, uh, actually, uh, as a global community hosting over 600 defense worldwide. 

Jonathon Wright That sounds amazing. So for those people who, who don't know kind of about the agility leadership, uh, network and kind of the work that you've been doing in the agile space over the last however many years, you know, it'd be great to give a bit of an introduction about what you guys are all about.

Giles Lindsay Yeah, no, for, for us, it's always been the bank trying to create a global community, sort of for the people by the people that that's, what it's about are there's enough of us who were old enough and gray enough and whatever who sort of been around the block. Uh, got the war wounds, got the successes. Uh, and we want to be able to share that back with, uh, those people who are now coming up through the ranks in the Agile world.

So be able to put on, you know, a mega event, if you like on February the 12th, which was my last count early this morning, we had over 1300 people who signed up for 

Jonathon Wright That's incredible. It's amazing to see just how much critical mass has followed that from, from that original kind of. Sign of the manifesto 20 over 20 years ago.

Uh, and I know yesterday was the launch event for you and, and a number of those speakers who will be joining us, um, and had a huge attendance to show you just how, you know, Uh, alive Agile is in, in how relevant it still is 20 years on. Um, so tell me a little bit about this event. You've got an event lined up on the 12th, um, and it's an Agile, uh, future. So tell me a little bit about that.  

Giles Lindsay Yeah. I think one of the things is we wanted an opportunity to get some awesome thought leaders to come along to that same community, come along and share what has meant for them, how it shaped their careers over the last 20 years, why they've become some of the big household names.

Um, through obviously this particular way of working the philosophy was mindset. Uh, and also we want to get to their aspiration for what the next. 10 20 years is gonna look like as well. Uh, recently we obviously, uh, both spoke to Dave Snowden that, uh, the, uh, vivid, uh, worldwide day's conference. Um, and you know, we had pretty much sort of a similar conversation with him and he gave us his thought leadership on where things are gonna happen and where they're going next.

So this is awesome. Because we've just got some great names turning up to the event for a three-hour extravaganza with obviously myself, yourself, Paul, and Ashley hosting this event. Uh, and it's going to be great fun. And, uh, you know, should we share who some of the people who are coming up at the event.

Jonathon Wright Yeah, no, I think it'd be great to kind of kick-off. Maybe that one of the headlines is as well. Brian, who was one of the original signatories of the Agile manifesto. So, you know, tell us a little bit about, you know, um, about Brian. Yeah. Well, 

Giles Lindsay Brian is obviously, you know, a huge representative in that software quality assurance space.

Uh, and for us, uh, I think one of the things we wanted to make sure was, was we actually had. Diversity, not just in terms of, of people, um, different geographic regions, but also, uh, from, uh, the different touchpoints in my job. So we've got people who are representing that, especially that technology, software engineering, software quality assurance space, in terms of Brian, you know, we've gone, you're going to Palo Alto coming along, especially talking to us, you know, the guy who created management 3.0.

So you know what that actually means to everybody as well. We then got. Jeff Watts coming along, who creates and writes all the books in the product development space. And we're really grateful that he can come along and represent the product development, product management, product ownership, space, um, and all the people that are coming along to that.

We then got a good friend of mine. My line's coming in, uh, who is obviously a, one of the co-founders again with another great friend, Scott Ambler, um, of disciplined Agile recently acquired by the PMI. And so, um, he's coming along and doing one of our lightning talks as well. We have right around the CEO of the Agile Alliance coming along, uh, and a good friend of yours. Jonathon, he's turning up to also represent on the evening. 

Jonathon Wright Yeah, I can't wait. It, you know, it's been many years. Um, I actually, I think he came up on my Facebook feed the other day cause he was there. We were in London for the Olympics. Um, and you know, I've, I've had the pleasure of, of, of many years of. Of of raised wisdom and, um, you know, I'll share you some of those stories later on, but it'd be great to have, uh, you know, there's such an amazing lineup.

Um, and also I guess that last session of the day around Laura, you know, that's going to be an incredible session. Could you give us a little bit more about Laura and why she, you know, where she fits into this whole. Yeah, 

Giles Lindsay Laura, I am, uh, you know, w w what, uh, uh, a great ambassador to certainly be having, uh, at the event as well during our closing keynote speech.

Um, and she has recently taken on the number two seat at the business agility Institute. Uh, and so not only am I working with her in terms of. Kick-starting and setting up the UK chapter of the business agility Institute, but to also have her supporting our events and coming along and doing her closing keynote, uh, is phenomenal.

I'm catching up with her this afternoon. So, uh, I'm going to be, uh, finding out how her preparations for the event are going and also to, uh, have a good chance and how she's supporting us with the launch of the UK chapter. So again, Uh, phenomenal to have Laura as our closing keynote at the end of the event.

Jonathon Wright Yeah, no, I think it's going to be great. And we've, we've tried to purposely mix this up a little bit in the sense of trying to make it, you know, interactive from the start, you know, it's a, it's a panel discussion. It's going to be, you know, incredibly insightful. It gets people involved. You know, there's going to be a Slido, uh, channel, uh, with the hashtag Agile where people can submit all their questions to these.

You know, um, fantastic, uh, uh, speakers, right? And then we then go into this kind of TED-style 20 minutes sessions, which are really inspirational talks. We didn't want it to be an hour or 45 minutes or 30 minutes of a presentation. We wanted that. You know, let's inspire people to, for the next 20 years.

Right. Um, and then, like you said, the closing keynote being, you know, Laura and just her incredible wealth of knowledge in this space to really facilitate, again, that same thing in a bit of a closing keynote with a bit of insight on her journey, but then also this kind of interactivity with yourself and Ashley and, and a few other people who are really want to get back involved and kind of ask some of those really critical questions.

Um, I think there's something there for everyone. And I think equally on demand is going to be an incredible event if you do miss it, but obviously put it into your diary. It's the 12th of February, which is a Friday and it's running from 5:00 PM till 8:00 PM. That's UK time. Uh, but of course it will be available across the globe with over a thousand registered agents.

And, you know, it's, it's just going to be an incredible event. I think, you know, we're going to get some really interesting questions and, you know, it's going to really challenge people to think what Agile really means. And I think it'd be great for those listeners that may be on. That familiar with our child to kind of talk about maybe the journey a little bit where it started, why it started and, and kind of where it's gone.

So, you know, w you know, back in 2001, You know, there was, it was very different how people were developing software. So if you want to tell us a little bit about, you know, how Agile was born. 

Giles Lindsay Yeah. I think obviously everybody has their own particular version and cons of this story from my perception and what it meant for me is that, you know, I graduated, um, obviously mid-nineties started working.

Yeah. In fairly traditional, bureaucratic, uh, waterfall V models, Stan software engineering practices and approaches. Uh, and of course, you know, there was this movement suddenly happening behind the scenes, which was gaming some serious fracturing, um, wanting to sort of change and overcome the friction and the problems that, you know, traditional software development, software engineering.

Teams and departments and capabilities we're facing. And so of course, you know, don't forget we'd already had, uh, you know, scrum, um, as a, um, framework being released and launched in, uh, October, 1995. Uh, and as such. It was part of that movement DSDM as well, XP, all of these things started that sort of cascade towards creating this Agile movement and this signing of this manifesto in February 2001 in Snowbird, Utah.

Um, and then on the backend of that, obviously it's evolved over the last 20 years. Just simply as something as a mindset, as a philosophy beyond software engineering. But also into, you know, what it means across an entire organization, that business agility, where, you know, the business agility Institute led by Evan label.

And then obviously Laura has emerged from, to support organizations at a completely different level to where they weren't being supported 20 years ago. So it's, it's been a journey that's certainly no end to this. It's going to evolve the language, the narrative of the vernacular is going to change over the coming years.

Um, it could probably simplify a lot in a lot of areas as well, but hopefully, for people like myself, this is just going to become the de facto norm, the de facto way of working in organizations. You know, won't even part of the conversation. It wouldn't be part of the literature. It won't be part of trying to say, Oh, we're not doing this, or we're not doing that.

It'll just be in the same way 20 years ago. You know, we were always talking about. Is your company broadband-enabled? Is it internet enabled? Do we ever ask that question 20 years on? No, it's just a it's a given. So taking the factor that you are broadband internet-enabled today in 2021. 

Jonathon Wright No. Absolutely. And it is interesting. And it's kind of what, you know, where, where everybody was. You know, I, I, I'm just a, been 2001 I was, um, working for Siemens, uh, which was, uh, Siemens, uh, engineering. And so I, I was a heavy, uh, V model waterfall, sequential engineering base. And I, you know, I, I must admit, I loved, loved that environment, you know, it was, um, but then, the release cycles were.

Um, you know, 12 to five years, right. And, you know, associated with that with a certain level of quality, right. You know, certain types of organization, you've got a certain kind of awareness of, of the brand, like German cars. Right. You know, they, you know, we've seen things like lead and come along and Toyota.

Uh, and all those great things that have kind of changed the way manufacturing is being done and whether or not, you know, um, you know, that's, that's resulted in, you know, things like Tesla and people being able to, to challenge the market with, with a new and innovative product. Right. And bring them quicker to market.

Um, and I think everyone's got this journey and, um, you know, an Agile has been part of that. Um, And I remember I was just trying to look for the book. I remember writing a book on, on, on enterprise Agile, uh, when he kind of people started trying to understand how to scale kind of Agile within an organization, because they've seen the success that teams could do by having this agility.

But then yeah. There was this kind of question around, well, you know, how do we get the rest of the organization to get on board and a scale that across, and I guess this is where a lot of the, the safe dad, Les kind of movement started really kind of challenge. Right. Uh, you know, how do we incorporate some kind of structure around that too, to allow organizations to scale Agile?

Uh, so do you think, you know, we're still part of that journey, or do you think that's really the, you know, the next challenge. 

Giles Lindsay No. I, I think, I think it was still part of that journey. I think we have also moved on slightly beyond that. Um, yeah. You know, we, we had problems to begin with. Right. And there's, it's, it's always been a given, you know, some of these frameworks and methodologies that sort of came about to merged in the early two thousands sort of work purposefully, devised to sort of be.

Anti-patterns if you'd like to sort of traditional management processes and other things to move away from bureaucracy and command and control and micromanagement, and kind of all of those other crazy things. And of course, ultimately, you know, that left the people that needed to change the most behind on that journey.

So there they were the development teams doing the crazy, amazing stuff, and there was the sort of the senior management, the leadership in these organizations. Suddenly feeling like they were losing control, losing grip of what was actually going on within the outcomes. The technology teams are creating.

And it was because nobody was taking them on the same journey as the rest of the team. So they, you had this engineering teams, technology team in the middle of an organization. 20% of the workforce, you have 80% of the workforce still working in those sort of traditional, bureaucratic, you know, waterfall, standard finance, annual budgeting process, ways of working.

So. What was the one team that was the odd one out here, you know, it was the technology team. They were the one that was sort of creating the friction with all of the other parts of the organization for many, many, many years, until obviously this sort of idea that guess what those same approaches that you could apply it to the technology team could be applied to the marketing team or the finance team or the legal team or to the C-suite.

And I think a lot of people have realized over the last few years, probably the last four or five years that actually. A lot of businesses. You mentioned people like Tesla and other people where they're applying that mindset and that way of working across an entire organization, they're reaping the benefits of it.

They're reaping the rewards of it. Absolutely. And it's over potentially clear when that happens. So I think, yeah, while there's a place for all of these frameworks and other things to, to exist genuinely, I think that we're probably moving beyond that. We've got to be thinking about simply. Creating agility in our organizations by being as pragmatic as possible.

You know, trying to look at the context of what's going on, applying the right strategy for the right context, to get that, you know, agility to happen, removing a wasted process, removing those trade-offs. Those long waiting, uh, sort of waterfall, protracted processes, getting them out of the way and getting things to market quicker, getting that business agility in place and achieving those successful business outcomes.

So for me, yeah, there's always going to be a place for all of these things in process. But it's really about trying to sort of mobilize organizations to have more organizational agility going forward. I think we'll see people will be taking the best bits, this and that and that. And there's some creating something hybrid, which is fit for that organization.

You don't crush an organization into a particular framework and crushed the living daylights out of it. You actually take the organization creates a nice wrapper that actually works. For the organization and making sure you're taking everybody on the journey, don't leave anybody behind. And I think that's where, you know, we'll see the success now really starting to happen going forward.

Jonathon Wright Absolutely. And I guess, you know, I know we've talked about this in the past, but you know, one of the challenges, I guess, if trying to retrofit a factory model or the success of a manufacturing model into a software development life cycle, We know that that's not the second thing. Right? Well, it might be producing cars, producing software, which is very different and it has its own different challenges.

Right. And I think, you know, this is an interesting kind of, um, kind of a turning point in that we're at right in the, you talk about organizational agility, which I think is, is a, is a bigger conversation. It's that conversation. And I know we've talked about what we call BA, which is this, uh, business.

Information technology is bringing business and information technology together the same way that Google would bring product and engineering to the correct product engineering, right. It's part of bridging the chasm between those two very different or types of organizational working, right. A mindset.

And I think, you know, is a, is a, a bigger discussion, right? It's not a. Development is not a, uh, project management is not a product management. It's, it's, it's something that sits across the top of the organization and a decision that's made by an Ilan by, um, you know, a Bill Gates that they want to change the organization, uh, for, to build, to keep up with the pace of change and also.

Technology is no longer just the enabler. It's the business, right? It's the business which you buy a product from and you represent the brand, whether that be a trainer or, you know, a car, right. You know, part of it is there are a lot more moving components than the end product, and it's not a project anymore.

It's, you know, that's, what's kind of what Gardner said at the start of 20. 20 was that we're, we're not seeing, uh, uh, the investment in it projects, but actually in products. And I think this is, uh, again, I know the change mentality and you know, my, my personal experience with, um, Being in Silicon Valley with a large, pure play software vendor.

You know, part of it was, you know, we looked at, you know, we, we adopted safe, right. And, and that, you know, Dean, uh, as a fantastic, uh, framework and methodology and supporting, but again, this criticism around it being over heavy right now, it doesn't, it's not pure agile, right. The purists kind of look at it saying, well, you know, part of it is lightweight.

Shouldn't have all that kind of stuff, but for an organization that is. 70 billion, you know, a year then, you know, part of it is they need something that they can scale across the organization. So we used to do, you know, in, in, uh, Santa Clara, big PI planning every quarter, right? We'd have all of the team from the, from the C-suite to product, too, you know, sales, marketing, all in a big room.

Uh, and we'd have the ropes on the side. We'd go through and look at, you know, break into teams and think about products and really feed in some of that. I value stream map management, which people are talking about in kind of understanding capabilities and enablement within the organization and things that we wanted to change.

And of course, again, software development is one thing, but you know, that might not be the sum of all your business, right? You may be a hardware organization, which I run it through. The company I work for was bought out by a hardware company. And I think, you know, that again has a certain. Lifecycle. Right.

And you know, my, my, my story with, with Ray was I remember going to, uh, Hillsborough in, in, Portland. And go into the, to see the, the entail campus, which, you know, 10,000 people, huge campus, obviously Intel renowned for making hardware. Right. And, um, you know, Ray spent his entire career, um, as kind of, uh, Moving the Agile momentum within Intel, right across, you know, Mexico, the US all these different countries.

And, you know, it was really interesting cause you know, you're the thing that I always remember from what Ray said was, you know, he got to about 15% was the, kind of the critical mass across the organization because they got to a point where. You know, we couldn't say, you know, Intel is Agile, right? You can't say everyone, and I can tell he's Agile.

You have to say, you know, the bits which are, uh, would, would benefit the most from it would be, you know, have, have gone through that kind of, uh, education or that kind of transformation or whatever would best. Uh, envisioning of this new kind of methodology and approach. And, and I was always really shocked, you know, and I went in and they, it was a, it was a mindset, right.

You know, they, every office had changed from these kinds of pig pens with people saying, you know, individual locations to these suites, which had, you know, sofas in them. And they had, you know, artists roaring the product direction as you know, on the walls. And. Yeah, Ray would always be a part, you know, dialing in whether he was a robot.

So you had a robot version of himself, which would navigate through the holes of Intel, uh, talk to people so that it could be in multiple countries at the same time, you know, they weren't flying over, they were interacting, they were collaborating, they had interactive whiteboards, they would have meetings.

And some, you know, 60, 40% of the staff were, were moving around with robots. Right. And you know, to me, that was. Probably five years ago, maybe longer now. Um, and you know, that vision of what the maturity and the level they of adoption they got to is maybe where I've not seen some of the other organizations that I've dealt with get to, you know, they, maybe it isn't right for them, but at the same time, you know, that journey is.

Is it a very long one and what means something different to everybody? So, you know, those people are listening and kind of thinking about the 12th, um, and you know what they're going to take away from it. And maybe what the questions they need to ask, you know, what are those, that, those kinds of challenges that you think people should be thinking about when it comes to agility?

Giles Lindsay Well, I think it's got to be those questions about how do they get the, I suppose, the leadership to get inspired to stand up behind this as well. Um, I still. Daily have conversations with people, um, through the business, talking to them about, um, I'm trying a bottom-up approach and I'm middle management and I'm trying to actually bring around, uh, sort of an Agile evolution in our organization, not a transformation, you know, it doesn't just sort of happen the ones, uh, and.

As such, you know, they sort of said to me, but I'm always blocked or I have resistance or resistance is here at this level or that level within the organization as well. And I think you've just got to keep having a conversation, keep sharing them the successes, keep pointing them to people who can tell what great looks like, what bad looks like, and everything else in between.

Uh, and you know, you've got to get the leadership behind this to support it, to get inspired so that, you know, everything you're doing all the mistakes and the failures, and then the successes that come from the learning from those mistakes and failures are wholly supported. And so you actually feel, you know, you, haven't got to hide behind the.

A power page. You can actually, you're not going to stick your head above it. Cause I'm gonna get one between the eyes from the senior leadership team. You know what? You're going to get her arm around your shoulder saying, nevermind, come on. Let's let's get on again and let's see what we can do next iteration, or where's the next release, whatever that is.

Um, for me, I think that's it. This comes back to that sort of organizational agility. I think the other thing is, is also about getting better communication across the organization so that the finance teams truly understand, I mean, 20 years on, and I'm still having conversations with finance teams. The marketing teams and sales teams, and that kind of go, what is this agile thing?

And, um, you know, it's crazy that we're still in this conversation 20 years on. Um, I think, you know, we should have done a lot more, a lot earlier in process to actually overcome some of those challenges. Um, but I suppose we didn't know what the challenges were. They've naturally evolved, uh, as organizations you're absolutely spot on, you know, the technology isn't standing still.

And you don't put a way of working in place and that's it forever more. Once you've created something, that's it. We never changed. We never in spent, we never adapt. We never iterate and change it. Well, guess what? The technology around us is changing quicker than we could probably actually respond to at times.

So we still need to make sure our ways of working actually work with that technology as well. And we can respond to those changes taking place because otherwise we're just going to hurt ourselves in a different way. So, you know, I, I think there has to be conversations as to what's that support look like with our cohort, our, you know, the, the, uh, amazing people coming along to the event.

I think it's, you know, what do they see the next 10, five, 10, 20 years looking like as well? What inspiration can they draw from that? Um, and, and really go from there. I think, you know, I'm, I'm certainly going to sit there as an open book, waiting to consume a huge amount of. Uh, new thought leadership from these guys that are all coming along, uh, and kind of then going, okay, I'm going to put some of this in practice going forward and see what I can do with it.

And I think that's where we want, as you know, the people to come along using Slido. Hashtag Agile when we, uh, share the link, uh, a few days before the event starts to start getting the questions in, especially for all of the Q and a panels and for our sort of mega Q & A panel at the end where we all come back on camera, uh, all the speakers who have been part of the festivities all come back, join on for that sort of global group Q and a session, uh, at the end of the event and have some amazing conversations with everyone.

Jonathon Wright Yeah, it sounds, it sounds amazing. I don't know one of the things we, you know, which is a bit of a bonus, which we're going to introduce at the end. So, you know, this is just an ex-world exclusive for the podcast listeners, but you know, we're looking at creating an Agile20 reflections Ebook out the back of this, which is going to be completely free.

Free forever, uh, collaboration of all the outcomes of what this one session is. So yeah, if you can watch it on-demand, but you know, if they're not able to get to the questions that you really want, we're going to make sure we get them. We'll follow up with them afterward and get some of that great kind of direction.

Some of that great wisdom as you kind of pointed out over, you know, such a talented group, but it's also. Designed to be for everybody. Right? So we want to hear your story. You know, if you've got a story about agile, the good, the bad, the ugly, you know, then, you know, we want you to contribute to. 

Giles Lindsay Yeah, I think this is going to be a great snapshot because there'll be people who have recently left schools, universities, other things as well, who are now entering into this world.

And hopefully, for the best part of their career, it will be the de facto way of working. Right. And they won't have experience or they won't get to experience some of that sort of bureaucracy, command and control and micromanagement, um, out there. Uh, yeah. So at the same time, there's going to be those who like yourself, like myself who have been through it for, you know, the majority of all of those 20 years, we are going to be able to talk about those successes, those failures.

Those people that have supported, uh, you know, the, the growth of the, the mindset and the approach and organizations and those people who, you know, purport that they knew how to do it and what to do and completely stifled it and killed it. Uh, and, and I've worked with. Both ends of that scale. Um, you know, certainly during my career.

So I think there's a lot for people to be able to share and what we do, and we will be making some big announcements and getting people to know where they have to go to, to add into this, but we'll create this snapshot. There's 2021 20th anniversary, snapshot of everybody's sort of mindsets ideas, uh, get this into an ebook, uh, and then get everybody to actually share on a map as well, where they are in the world.

And who's actually applied input into the book as well. And then we'll see what we do possibly in five years time, we'll do a refresher of it. And then a five years time after that, we'll do another refresher of the book as well, and get more and more people to input and see whether perceptions and mindsets have changed over that timeframe as well.

And I, I think we will, I think there'll be a bit of an acceleration of change now happening and, you know, it's, it's going to be for the positive only for the good, 

Jonathon Wright Absolutely. And I guess, you know, if as Ray would probably say resistance is futile, right. You know, part of it. It doesn't matter where you are or what you do, whether you're just starting your career out as a young professional, or you're in a large entity, an engineering organization, there's going to be aspects of this that you can learn from then that in Yoda would say, you know, uh, wisdom there is, you know, you know, we would get some real value in, in, in sharing what, where we are and, you know, those challenges we've had and also reflecting back, right.

You know, People like Tom Gilb who wrote Evo predating kind of the Agile manifesto. We were talking about evolutional design and, and, and you know, this kind of iterative approach, you know, one of the challenges, I guess it's been there for on a reason, is it the Agile manifesto has never changed.

Right. You know, it's not that it also hasn't been Agile, right. It's not been updated. It's the core values have stayed the same. And I think that also. Needs a tweaking for people who it means something different. It may mean they don't actually have a customer, you know that. So they have to think about, you know, who it matters to, you know, the certain aspects.

So I think, you know, part of it is. Everyone's going to have a different opinion too, too, to this. And like you say, this there's also been this kind of industry trend, which we get, and it's the same with dev-ops is, you know, something comes out a few years later, everyone says we're doing DevOps. Right. And you know, it's, it's kind of that kind of area that they want to be able to tick the box that they've done it.

And like you said, this is, it's a journey. It's, you know, it's an evolution, you know, it's not. Revolution is not a big bang. You know, it's not changing all the processes and procedures within the organization and tick the box, you know, and I think that's what happened. We lost a lot to F of momentum with that.

We're already doing our job or we're being Agile. You know, there was a very different, uh, understanding levels of maturity or capability or, or, or, um, and I think this really has. You know, they moved us all into a different location. They all mean something very different now for 2020. So everyone's got a very valid, you know, viewpoint, and we want to hear all of those viewpoints and we've got some of the leading experts here to take those questions and telling them what they think.

Right. Well that their, their heart is saying to what the next 20 years is going to look like. So, you know, kind of finishing it off for those people who want to get involved more. Right. What would your recommendations be for kind of things to sign up to, you know, uh, as far as kind of the agility leadership, you know, w where, where is the support networks to help people, um, you know, find out more about agile and, and what's going on.

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Giles Lindsay Well, as we've seen, you know, especially with this festival events that are happening or this festival, I should say that it's happening throughout the month of February, there are over 600 events happening globally. Right? So, I mean, there's going to be something in your geographic region, but you can sign up to, you only have to Google Agile20Reflect. And you'll end up on the page where you can go and find it all 600 events. You can also go to agile, twenty.org, uh, come and join up with the agility leadership network and also sign up for our sort of mega-festival events. Uh, trying to get it, obviously to be one of the big events of the month of February.

Uh, and, um, you know, come on, reach out to us, talk to us on LinkedIn. You know, if we want, uh, ideas about who to talk to, whether they're going to want to join. And it's a lot of us out there who have got that experience, who's sort of been through those. Um, pitfalls and troughs and peaks. And so we know the best places to go to, to go and find this out to them, discover this.

So, you know, there are many ways of getting in touch, letting say an agility leadership network through the Agile20Reflect, uh, websites as well. Um, and come and talk to us, obviously at the event on the 12th. 

Jonathon Wright Brilliant. And that's agile20.org. And you know, if you go and sign up now, you know like we've got over a thousand, 1,300 people on there already, and we still got to, you know, a good 10 days before the launch.

Right. So, you know, there's. You know, plenty of time, put your time to get your questions in and start thinking about what you want to ask these, these Agile legends. Right. And I know you are officially the Agile wizard, um, but yet reach out to definitely to Giles and ask and, you know, All these other people who will point you in the right direction that you'll get devoted to the Slack channels.

You know you'll be able to ping them, ask them questions, you know, it's all about helping each other and moving this forward for, for the greater good. Um, so yeah, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you, uh, on the podcast. And, uh, I can't wait for the event on the 12th. 

Giles Lindsay Thanks, Jonathon. I'll see you soon. I'll see you on the 12th.